[00:00:00] Sean Burke: Welcome to the Care to Listen podcast. In today’s episode, we’re joined by a Vanier Scholar recipient, Nancy Henderson, as a dedicated nurse and researcher. Today, we’ll explore the critical work being done in harm reduction and safe supply. Nancy shares their journey from the frontline nursing to research while tackling the toxic drug crisis and addressing burnout along the way.

[00:00:21] Today’s episode is being broadcasted to you on the unceded and traditional territories of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil Waututh Nations. Trigger warning, this episode includes discussions about sensitive topics, including substance use and the toxic drug crisis. Welcome back to another episode of the Care to Listen podcast.

[00:00:40] I’m your host, Sean Burke. And today joining me is Nancy Henderson. Welcome to the show, Nancy.

[00:00:45] Nancy Henderson: Thank you for having me.

[00:00:47] Sean Burke: Yeah, we’re really lucky to have somebody who has such a wealth of background when it comes to, um, working on topics that are so important, like what we’re going to touch on today, um, with researching safe supply models.

[00:01:01] Uh, talking about how that relates to the toxic drug crisis. Um, and then just also talking about your own personal experience being and working in the healthcare, um, world and being a, a nurse yourself. So, thanks again for coming on to the show. Um, would love to just open it up by giving an opportunity for you to, You know, talk a little bit about yourself and what brought you out to to BC here.

[00:01:24] Nancy Henderson: Sure. Yeah, I can start with a little bit about myself. I am originally from Ontario, where I worked as a registered nurse in predominantly in the Algonquin territories, um, working as a community harm reduction nurse. I also spent some time at the beginning of my career working as a pediatrics nurse. Um, and I knew when I started my Bachelor of Science in Nursing that I wanted to work with people who were most impacted by the housing crisis and poverty and what came to be known as the drug toxicity crisis or the overdose crisis.

[00:01:59] And. I, I, um, while I really love the relational part of being a community harm reduction nurse, um, I, it, it became frustrating working within that realm on an individual level with people, um, because of the policies and systems that, um, are so unjust and inequitable. I. Um, the main reason that the, that those systems are frustrating is that they’re built on the colonial and racist and, um, capitalist patriarchy that, um, that, that systems are part of.

[00:02:37] And so with that frustration, instead of letting it get to me, I decided to, um, do a master’s in nursing, um, which I did at Queen’s University in Ontario. And through that, I wanted to understand how I could. Um, I could, um, how I could do research and looking at these systems and policy failures. Um, so, um, I also wanted to look at how instead of just on an individual basis helping people, I wanted to see if I could do something more on a population level and finding solutions to these problems.

[00:03:12] Um, So my master’s in nursing research was focused on, um, understanding the stories of people with lived experience or living experience who were engaged in prescribed safer supply programs. And I had been working, um, alongside people in Prescribed Safer Supply Program. So I really wanted to understand that experience.

[00:03:37] And at the same time that I was doing my master’s, I was also starting a, um, or creating and evaluating a Prescribed Safer Supply Program in Nogoji, Kwanong, um, which is Peterborough, Ontario. Um, and, um, Through that experience, I really became very interested in research and knew that if I wanted to pursue that, that I should do a PhD.

[00:04:02] And that brings me to where I am now. Um, I decided to come to the University of Victoria. Um, and work with the School of Nursing because I really wanted to work with, um, one of the professors there, Dr. Bernie Pauly, um, because her research really aligns with what I want to do. And she focuses a lot on harm reduction and safer supply at this point, um, also with homelessness and other marginalized communities.

[00:04:30] Um, so, The reason I didn’t have to move here in order to do this degree, but because the main focus of Dr. Pauly’s work is to work relationally with communities, doing participatory research, I knew that my best chance of working and learning From her was to actually come here because you can’t do relational research without being with community I really wanted to do to do research with community rather than on community And that’s that’s what brought me here.

[00:05:06] Sean Burke: That’s amazing and I think certainly needed right now when we talk about you know, the numbers the impact of You know, the toxic drug crisis right now. Um, and knowing that, you know, there’s many different ways to move forward and that when it comes to harm reduction, when it comes to safe supply, that these are tools, um, so I’d love to kind of maybe jump into a little bit there.

[00:05:30] I think it’s so important that when we’re talking about different tools that can combat and, you know, work to support people who, um, you know, are trying to navigate and find a way forward through the toxic drug crisis, you know, one of those tools being safe supply. So I’m wondering if maybe you could speak a little bit towards what, what is safe supply?

[00:05:53] Nancy Henderson: So Safe Supply is, um, that we have come to know and what is, what is out there in the media and in the news that is being talked about and discussed openly is Prescribed Safer Supply. So Prescribed Safer Supply started with a small group of, of physicians and nurse practitioners who, um, wanted to provide, um, a pharmaceutical grade alternative to the street supply of drugs for the people who were most impacted by the drug toxicity crisis and were most at risk.

[00:06:24] Uh, the concept of safe supply was originally put out there by People Who Use Drugs and, um, which was formalized in 2019 by the Canadian Association of People Who Use Drugs. And their concept wasn’t really able to come to fruition because of prohibition that has been in place since 1908. Um, So these prescribers were trying to provide something and kind of adopt what people who use drugs had conceptualized and to be able to act because the drug toxicity crisis was killing so many people.

[00:06:57] And I think looking at safe supply, we have to understand why we have safe supply. And, um, so, Most people we know use substances of some sort, and, but a lot of those substances are regulated by the government, and, um, which makes them safer for us to use. They’re not completely safe, but we know the quality and content of that product, which might be alcohol or caffeine or now cannabis, um, And we are able to make, have agency and choice in what we choose to, to consume, and we’re aware of the risks.

[00:07:37] Unfortunately, some drugs have been considered to be, um, prohibited. So things like cocaine, heroin, fentanyl, and so they are not regulated by the government. And so that takes away people’s agency and choice. And Then they don’t know what the quality or composition or strength of those products are, which puts them at risk every single time they use that substance.

[00:08:03] Because of that, there have been over 44, 000, 144, 000 people die, um, in Canada since January 2016. And that comes to about 22 people a day. That is where, that is why we need safer supply. 22 people died yesterday, about 22 died today, and another 22 will die tomorrow, and the next day, and it goes on. Um, and without, without making changes, this will continue.

[00:08:31] So, it’s kind of the ethics of what do you do when you’re in a crisis such as this.

[00:08:36] Sean Burke: And that question I know, you know, especially from a BC provincial perspective right now, um, You know, as unfortunate as it is, it, it’s, uh, something that’s being politicized. Um, so when it comes into, you know, politics as opposed to the individuals, I mean, we’re talking about, as you mentioned, 22 lives in Canada each day.

[00:08:58] Um, as opposed to, you know, a policy that people are gonna, you know, continue to, to seek election. And, you know, if we remove, you know, You know, the politics and focus specifically on what safe supply does and how it’s potentially part or not potentially how it’s part of harm reduction at the end of the day, it’s really just trying to keep people alive.

[00:09:24] And that’s something that I, you know, I would hope that as all Canadians, all British Columbians, we can get behind and support. Um, although that Um, so I’m curious to hear from your perspective as you’ve been doing some of this research, what are some of the early findings or discoveries that you, you know, are, are kind of coming out of some of the research?

[00:09:49] Nancy Henderson: Yeah, for sure. So, uh, All of these programs that were put in place were set up to be evaluated. So this is, they were, it’s kind of, it’s evidence making interventions instead of having the evidence base already there and then putting something in place. So this is done in many, many different healthcare disciplines, um, not just with harm reduction.

[00:10:13] And, um, And, and it’s not coming out of nowhere. There is evidence that was there before about, um, that came from studies that were done in using, um, hydromorphone or Dilaudid. Um, but the evidence for safer supply, um, has predominantly been prescribed safer supply and it has been coming out since 2020 when, um, these programs really, really started to appear more often.

[00:10:39] Um, And it was slow in the first couple of years as, as programs were getting and prescribing was getting set up, um, but there has been quite an influx and there are over 50 studies right now, um, on pres on safer supply. Um, as I said, mostly prescribed safer supply, but there, there is a little bit on non prescribed safer supply.

[00:11:00] Um, the major outcomes that are coming from it are that these programs are successful, um, overall and, um, that people are doing well on them. They’re having increased quality of life, decreased use of the street supply of drugs, um, decreased, um, dependency on criminalized activities. And there is a, a population level quantitative study that came out of BC that showed that when people received one dose of, of, um, of, of prescribed safer supply, they had a decrease in their risk of overdose.

[00:11:41] And I, I don’t know the numbers right off the top of my head, but I think it’s 55 percent, around 55 percent. And then when they receive four or more doses in that week, then their, their risk reduced. even greater to 89 percent less risk of overdose. So there is a protective factor with taking, with taking safer.

[00:12:03] Sean Burke: Um, and you know, I’m just thinking some of the listeners might be, you know, asking the questions around wellbeing. You know, and, and what some of the misconceptions might be, but are you not just enabling the problem, um, by providing safe supply? So what would you say to somebody who maybe asked you that question?

[00:12:21] Nancy Henderson: Yeah. So there’s a lot of misinformation and rhetoric surrounding safer supply. Um, it’s rampant in media and, um, and in politics, as you mentioned, um, people, as I said, people use substances. The majority of us use a substance, one or another, and We, it has been shown that putting people, forcing people to stop, forcing people to go to treatment just doesn’t work.

[00:12:48] People, we need to meet people truly where they’re at and provide them with this, with a safer alternative to what they’re using on the street because that street supply is so low. unbelievably toxic and unpredictable at this time.

[00:13:06] Sean Burke: Well, and I want to jump back to some of your math master’s thesis and the work that you did, and I believe it was like incorporating part of the lived experience you also added on areas of grief, I believe, um, and, and providing different people with those supports, because obviously if somebody’s going through, um, their addiction, there’s typically, you know, other parts of mental health issues that might be related to, you know, For that person.

[00:13:35] So I’m just curious, like what was the thinking that was going on when it came to you developing your, your program and, and the research that you were doing through your master’s thesis?

[00:13:44] Nancy Henderson: Sure. So I was doing two things at the same time at, at that point. Um, so I was working on my master’s thesis. Um. And which was with people with living experience of, of being involved in a prescribed safer supply program.

[00:13:58] And I was also, I started working in, uh, Peterborough, um, on a research project. It was completely research based. I was the only person on the, on the project at the time. And that was in April 2021. And it was looking at barriers and facilitators, potential barriers and facilitators of prescribed safer supply.

[00:14:19] Okay. The first thing that I did when I got there is that there was a advisory committee set up made up of healthcare individuals, like people working within the healthcare system and also, um, people from academia, but there was nobody with lived experience that was involved in the project from Peterborough.

[00:14:40] So I asked to. use a chunk of the budget for honorarias and, um, and create an advisory committee of people who use drugs to help guide me through this research. As a nurse, I like action and, um, I knew these, I already knew that these programs were successful. So I went to the executive director with a proposal of how we could design, um, implement and evaluate a program because there was additional funding that we could apply for through Health Canada’s Substance Use and Addiction Program.

[00:15:14] Um, she agreed and so we put in this application and it was successful. So that little research project turned into a program for up to 50 people, um, which launched me into a program manager role, which I, is not exactly what I had planned, um, but it was. It was, um, exciting because I could hire a team of, so there were 10 of us on the team, and we co created this program together.

[00:15:42] One of the things that I brought with me as a community harm reduction nurse into this role was the knowledge of how, um, impactful the grief and loss was, as you mentioned. Um, working in community. or being in community as a person with living experience, the grief and loss is overwhelming. And, um, just the sheer number of people who are dying, or not even necessarily dying, but overdose, having overdoses, um, that are being reversed.

[00:16:13] And all of that is impacting people. Um, so I took a chunk of the budget and, um, reached out to somebody who, um, had done work with other harm reduction workers in other communities and asked her to develop a program for the team. So, this program, um, involved monthly, um, Monthly meetings, um, and also people could do individual sessions with this person as a sort of counseling kind of sessions.

[00:16:43] And there was also, um, one of the facilitators also offered Indigenous teachings and ceremonies as needed. Um, so it was about, um, wellness of the team. It was about keeping that team so that we didn’t lose people. And so that they could do this job in a good way. And, uh, be there for each other, and also be there for the participants who were coming on to the program.

[00:17:09] Sean Burke: It’s such an important part of the equation. I mean, it’s not as simple as just saying, Okay, you’re using STOP. Um, if it was, people would do that, um, but the reality is, is that it’s a extremely complex, um, situation and often, as you mentioned, there’s more than one thing, um, and so, yeah, I mean, that’s so great to hear that, one, there was the, and is the research that’s being done on that, and then, two, you’re, you’re providing those supports and, um, Doing it, as you mentioned, in a good way.

[00:17:40] So, you know, I just wanted to encourage you to keep, to keep doing that. That’s, that’s great to see. Jumping back into some of the current research, um, and more specifically on the non-prescribed models, uh, I’m curious what those barriers to access. Um, and what sort of challenges have you been facing when it comes to the research that you’ve been doing?

[00:18:03] Nancy Henderson: Yeah, absolutely. There, um, through my work, um, with, especially with the Peterborough project, it was really obvious that there were a lot of barriers, um, for people accessing, trying, or trying to access the program. And then there were barriers for people who were on the program. Um, some of these barriers were things like, First, you need a substance use disorder or opioid use disorder diagnosis in order to receive a prescription.

[00:18:30] And there are a lot of people out there who are using the street supply who are occasional users who are maybe every other weekend use drugs and they would not qualify for the program. Um, but every time they’re using the street supply, they are at risk of overdose. And many people who are just occasional users, um, are dying.

[00:18:51] So, um, but then. Also, within the program, there are barriers to things like transportation, to get to appointments, and needing to go to the pharmacy every day, and, um, just general requirements of the program that are hard. It’s hard to get to the clinic all the time. Um, so I, I started to recognize and I think many people recognized that we needed alternative models of safer supply to be, to exist because the medical model just wasn’t keeping up with what people needed more.

[00:19:25] There was this great need and only very few spaces. Um, so the. The ideas of alternatives to this, like the non prescribed models, have been introduced in, especially in B. C., where the, the chief coroner put out a report in November of last year, and Dr. Bonnie Henry in the office of the public health officer just released a report introducing, um, the, the concept of non prescribed or alternatives to the prescribed models.

[00:19:58] And I think those reports are really important, even though The recommendations, uh, the government did not take the recommendations. Um, I think they’re really important just to get the discussion going.

[00:20:10] Sean Burke: And, you know, when it comes to some of those recommendations, could you share, shed a little bit of light on what were those recommendations?

[00:20:17] Nancy Henderson: So especially from, from the public health officer report, a bunch of models were introduced. So there were the prescribed models, but an enhanced model of this prescribed model. So doing things a little bit differently with maybe a little bit, um, less restrictions on people. And, and then there were non prescribed models.

[00:20:37] So things like a liquor store model, which we’re all very aware of, or a storefront kind of like the cannabis model. Um, and then there were also compassion clubs and buyers clubs where it’s a membership driven model that could be more community based. Um, and then there were also, um, And, and then an entertainment model where you would go to an entertainment venue and there would be options that you could, that you could purchase at that place.

[00:21:06] Sean Burke: And with those models, basically in the research, there would be, um, different ways to, to measure the efficacy of the program to be able to, uh, basically provide learnings to see how we can move forward to tackle the problem. I wish this conversation wasn’t so difficult to try to be, to be so precise and important with the way that we’re talking about safe supply, the way we’re talking about, um, trying to combat the, the opioid crisis.

[00:21:37] And a lot of times the reality is, is that politics You know, jumps into the picture very quickly. Um, and the ideas, the, uh, innovation, it really becomes politicized and then quickly turned down as we’ve recently seen, um, through the recommendations, through the public health office, and then also to through the coroner’s report.

[00:22:02] So I’m just curious from your perspective, like to move these initiatives forward. What more work do we need to do to educate society that this is the right steps to take?

[00:22:15] Nancy Henderson: Yeah, that’s, that’s a really great point. I think, I think, first of all, that we need to get politics out of the conversation like you’re, you’re, uh, mentioning, um, because in order for, for this to move forward, we need, The public buy in and public buy in influences public, uh, the political movement.

[00:22:37] And so I think getting that the messages out there, getting the correct information to the public is vitally important. How we do that, I don’t have the answers. Um, but I think that is really important. The other thing is, is we have these models and, um, that have been introduced now. And we’re where my interest lies in my PhD is understanding how do we implement these?

[00:23:03] What, what, what could it look like if we were to go down that road? If the, um, politics shifted a little bit and allowed us to go down that road? And we don’t have that. available right now. Um, so, um, my goal is to work with, in a participatory way, with people who use drugs and across the province to understand, um, what they’re doing.

[00:23:27] what these models could look like in their communities, and how they would envision their involvement in it, as well as government’s involvement, and public health’s involvement, and all of that stuff. So, um, I think, I think we need to, to, um, alongside those models that we have, we need to understand how that they could actually be put into place.

[00:23:51] Sean Burke: And just for those listeners, when we talk about participatory models, um, and Essentially bringing in people with lived experience to be part of the solution. Why is that such an important part of your research? Why have you really honed in on making sure that that is a big part of the research?

[00:24:08] Nancy Henderson: Yeah, I, I, I just really think that, um, marginalized communities, there’s been lots of research done on them and, um, not enough, uh, not enough research done with them so that they are, um, and this goes for people who use drugs, but also other marginalized communities.

[00:24:27] Um, we need to listen to what they have to say. We need, we have the academic knowledge, the, um, that is being produced in universities and, but we, We also have to consider the experiential knowledge just as important as that academic knowledge. So it’s a way of merging the two together. And, um, and allowing people to use drugs to have a voice in what, what their future looks like.

[00:24:58] Sean Burke: Well, you know, it brings me up this idea of, you know, methadone. And, you know, when, when previously we were having a conversation, I was curious and I asked the question, well, how does methadone really differ from safe supply? Um, so I’m curious if maybe you could walk us through a little bit about. you know, the history of methadone and how that, you know, initial sort of controversy came about and, and what’s happened since.

[00:25:23] Nancy Henderson: Yeah, sure. I’m not an expert on methadone’s history, but I have a, I have some understanding. So first the, the differences between methadone and safer supply that we talked about was, um, Methadone is a long acting medication, and the model is abstinence based treatment. And people are given their methadone and, um, and with the goal of, of abstaining from the street supply.

[00:25:51] Whereas Safer Supply is providing an alternative, it’s, it’s usually, or, or, always, um, a short acting medication, sort of immediate release medication. Um, so it, it, and it’s often taken alongside something like methadone, which the methadone would, would be there for the withdrawal and cravings. And then the, um, and then it would be, In addition to that, you would also get your safer supply medications, which are the short acting like hydromorphone, Dilaudid, um, or oxys or whatever that might be.

[00:26:24] Um, so with methadone, this, the, the interesting part about methadone and safer supply is if you look at the history, methadone was introduced in the fifties and sixties, um, in North America. And when I was reading through. Research done at that time, looking at the history, it, I could have been reading safer supply information because the same, um, the same rhetoric that was going against it, the same critiques of it, existed.

[00:26:57] So things like that there was over prescribing of methadone, that it was causing new opioid use disorders, that it was, um, dangerous and, and, putting people at risk of overdose and deaths. Those are the same arguments they’re using now against safer supply, and they were used in the fifties and sixties against methadone.

[00:27:16] But Over the years, methadone, methadone at that time was being evaluated and it has now become a gold standard treatment for opioid use disorder. So it’s just interesting to see how the, how a similar, uh, backlash was used against methadone that is now being used against safer supply.

[00:27:35] Sean Burke: Yeah, I found that quite fascinating when we were talking about that and, and just how, you know, Now, you know, that’s potentially one of the gold standards when it comes to treatment, um, and when it comes to supporting people, it’s such an important part of the conversation to, to really look towards our past, to learn from, you know, the, the other ways forward when it comes to supporting people, um, who are in active, active addiction, um, and is a really complex problem.

[00:28:07] And, you know, to simplify the problem. And to basically say there’s one solution for one person, you know, would just be very short sighted. And so I, you know, really want to applaud you and the work that you’re doing because I know it’s difficult. Um, I know it’s highly controversial. Even today, some of our statements that we’ve made, right?

[00:28:28] Let’s acknowledge that there’s going to be people that are listening to this that completely disagree. Absolutely. Um, but what I hope is that we can all agree that Um, that life saved and an opportunity for that person to, uh, go through, uh, their recovery journey, whatever that might look like, um, is something that we can all agree on.

[00:28:51] Nancy Henderson: Yeah. And I think another similarity that with methadone is and safer supply or treatment and safer supply that I hope exists is that. We’re all doing this work for the same reasons. We want to provide services and supports for people, um, in order for them to make improvements in their life. And it’s just a difference of the way that you’re approaching that work that, um, that becomes controversial.

[00:29:18] Sean Burke: And I’m curious to jump into like, from your perspective, being a nurse and someone who has, um, You know, also experienced burnouts and, you know, really trying to put your, your clients and your patients at the forefront. What sort of experience have you had when it comes towards like, you know, really trying to, to be there for your patients, but also to recognizing that it’s taking a toll on yourself.

[00:29:44] Nancy Henderson: Yeah, that’s, that’s a really tough, a tough one. I think that, um, this work is, um, personal, and it’s, um, and it’s difficult. It’s, it’s like the, the grief and loss is real. And I don’t know anyone who’s working in harm reduction or with people use drugs in some sort of way, or, or people who are unhoused, um, that isn’t being impacted by the realities of that work.

[00:30:12] And it’s very hard to separate yourself from your work and your, um, profession, in your personal life. Sorry. Um, and I don’t think I, I have the answer of exactly how to do that. I think we all have to try to find the way that we can contribute to it. And I, I really, like I said, I enjoyed the individual level of, uh, relational community harm reduction nursing.

[00:30:38] Um, I got great, um, I got so much out of it. Um, but it wasn’t where I felt that I, that I could, that I could exist within that space. So I found another way of working with the population, the same population, but just in a different way. And I think because of that, um, relational work that I did in community, I’m bringing that into my research so that I can continue to work alongside people who use drugs and people who are unhoused.

[00:31:09] Sean Burke: So what are your hopes and visions for the future when it comes towards, you know, what we hope to see and how some of your research can really impact, um, future generations?

[00:31:21] Nancy Henderson: I, I hope that, uh, that, um, the research that I do will, I, ultimately, I think, most of us hope that it will influence policy change and that we will see, see changes within systems.

[00:31:35] Um, I just really hope that we can shift the conversation and that we can get the, get it out there, the, the other side of the, of the rhetoric and misinformation that exists.

[00:31:49] Sean Burke: So from today’s conversation, I think so many people as they’re listening are, you know, struggling to form an opinion on whether they should be supporting safe supply or, you know, if in fact it could be harmful to support safe supply.

[00:32:07] So I’m curious, like, what would you say to somebody thinking, um, or starting to formulate a little bit more of like an understanding of what safe supply is and how. It can be helpful to society.

[00:32:22] Nancy Henderson: It is hard for people to wrap their heads around, um, the concept, a lot of concepts around harm reduction and safer supply.

[00:32:29] And I think getting informed and understanding, um, all of the parts of safer supply and not just going based on opinion pieces of the National Post or the political rhetoric that we’re hearing from, from some politicians. Um, I think really, um, Trying to understand the evidence behind it that is being created and understanding that this does not increase crime, this does not increase drug use.

[00:32:56] It, it, it actually prevents harms. If, like, what are the ethics behind doing nothing when people are dying, people will continue to die. So, um, this is, um, another tool. It is not in, in, to replace treatment and recovery. I believe there needs to be investment in more treatment and recovery but alongside that we also need harm reduction and that includes safer supply because it’s, it’s shown that these programs save, save lives.

[00:33:26] Sean Burke: And that is a great spot I think when it comes towards the conversation is Go get educated. Um, you know, opinion pieces, while they might be interesting to read, um, you know, they might not tell the whole story and that goes on both sides. So the more research you can do, the more people you can talk to that have that lived experience, which is exactly, I think, the basis of, of a lot of your research, that’s, what’s going to help to bring a better picture on how we can support people, um, to move forward through some of the challenges and, and Like you said, doing nothing, you know, that, that’s a problem in and of itself because we’re only going to continue to see the challenges that, that we’ve experienced.

[00:34:07] Um, I want to thank you so much for your time today, Nancy Henderson. This has been such a great conversation. It’s certainly just the beginning. Um, and you know, I wish you all the best in your research and excited to see, you know, what, what continues to come out of it and how to best move forward.

[00:34:24] Nancy Henderson: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:34:27] Sean Burke: Thanks for listening to this episode. Be sure to visit the links in the show notes for resources and supports from the Care for Caregivers program. If you’re interested in sharing your story on the Care to Listen podcast, please reach out to us at careforcaregivers. ca forward slash podcast. And don’t forget to follow us on your favorite podcast platform to be notified when new episodes are released.

[00:34:48] Thanks again for joining us and see you next month.