[00:00:00] Sean Burke: Welcome to the Care to Listen podcast. Today, I am joined by Kelsey Klaver, an advocate for psychological safety in healthcare organizations. In this episode, we’ll explore Kelsey’s journey, both professionally and personally, delving into her insights on psychological safety and its evolution over time.

We’ll uncover the challenges she’s encountered in her career and personal life, and how these experiences have shaped her approach to promoting psychological well being in healthcare settings. Today’s episode is being broadcasted to you on the unceded and traditional territories of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil Waututh Nations.

Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Care to Listen podcast. I’m your host, Sean Burke, and today joining me is Kelsey Klaver. Welcome to the show, Kelsey. 

[00:00:43] Kelsey Klaver: Hi, Sean. Great to be here. Thanks for having me. 

[00:00:46] Sean Burke: Well, we’re so lucky to have you. I think, you know, somebody who comes with such a wealth of experience when it comes to, you know, psychological safety in the workplace and just, uh, storied, I guess, um, background and experiences that you have when it comes to, um, supporting mental health and wellness.

So let’s just start there. Could maybe introduce yourself? 

[00:01:04] Kelsey Klaver: Yeah, for sure. Uh, so, uh, I started out, uh, after my undergrad degree in psychology and kinesiology, I, uh, started at UBC’s School of Population, um, Public Health, where I was, uh, inter researching, uh, homelessness and access to healthcare services. And that got me thinking, I’d like to be doing some more systems change work.

I’d like to be working, um, to affect people at a population level. So, uh, decided to do a Master’s in Public Health and Health Promotion, and was lucky enough to do an internship at the World Health Organization in the Mental Health and Substance Use, um, Department. Uh, from there, uh, Uh, went over to Ottawa, worked for the federal government in their mental health promotion unit.

Uh, realized that, uh, I kind of wanted to do more advocacy, so went over to the Canadian Nurses Association, uh, where I was, uh, doing government relations for them and advocating to parliamentarians for health in all policies and supervised injection sites. And, uh, then after that, uh, wanted to get into a leadership role, so went to, to do my MBA in, in leadership at Cornell, and then came back to Vancouver.

And since then, I’ve been working in psychological health and safety. during the pandemic that was, uh, kind of, uh, really influenced, um, it really helped me realize this is, this is where I can have an impact and I’m very passionate about this area. So that’s where, yeah, it’s landed me here. 

[00:02:24] Sean Burke: You know, it’s, it’s never been more important.

I mean, when you look at some of the challenges healthcare workers are facing, Um, being short staffed, dealing and trying to navigate the toxic drug crisis, um, the strain on the system, like you said, rebounding from COVID. The list goes on. Yeah. Um, so when it comes to some of the work that you’ve been doing, you know, I’d love to maybe just start with defining psychological safety, you know, what, what does that mean?

Yeah, I’d love to hear just your general perspective on what it is. 

[00:02:56] Kelsey Klaver: For sure. It’s a bit of a trendy term right now being thrown around at conferences, and it is often used in ways that I don’t think is quite aligned with the definition. So, um, I can start with what it is not. It’s not about It’s being nice to everyone.

It’s not about avoiding conflict. What it is, it’s, it’s about culture. It’s about having, um, a culture that’s conducive to mental health where we can be, we can bring our true selves to work. And, um, it’s really two interrelated realms being psychological health is our mental health, our ability to, um, contribute to our work, our home life, our community, um, bounce back from stressors, be resilient.

Uh, and then psychological safety on the other hand. Is that’s more about, um, being in an environment where we can be ourself. We can be candid, uh, Amy Edmondson defined it as, um, uh, about candor and, um, being our, bringing our true self to work, uh, felt permission for candor. I believe she said, um, [00:04:00] Timothy Clark defines it in four ways.

He defines it as having, um, inclusion safety where we can be feel, belong, we’re accepted, uh, then also having, um, learner safety where we can ask questions that might be bold, where we can have contributor safety, where we can bring our thoughts forward and feel that it’s a safe place to be. place to do so without being judged or humiliated.

And, uh, finally a challenger safety, which is kind of the, the, the last level, that’s always hard to get to where we can challenge an idea or challenge each other in a safe and respectful way and feel, feel okay doing that. And that’s really what leads to innovation. 

[00:04:38] Sean Burke: So basically all the things, all the things, you know, when it comes to.

Holistically, how somebody might be showing up, how they might be feeling, um, Yeah. Really interesting because, you know, the more we ask that question just to define psychological safety. different people are going to probably interpret it differently. Um, totally. Well, when it comes to, you know, understanding why it’s important from your perspective, have you seen, um, you know, situations where maybe when somebody doesn’t understand why it’s important to have psychological safety, um, in workplaces or, you know, to somebody who might be a cynic or, you know, Criticize, like, this really isn’t part of our job.

You know, how would you sort of approach somebody like that? 

[00:05:25] Kelsey Klaver: I, I’d talk to them about, have they ever felt Um, afraid to raise a new idea in a workplace on a team. Have they ever, um, hesitated before bringing up a new idea? Uh, it, psychological safe in teams are actually more rare than we think. And some teams have varying degrees of that.

But if we focus on how good it feels to be able to be your true self. In how you can contribute more that way, um, I think that’s one way of helping people say, like, see how this can be a value to everyone, not just, um, employers, not just, um, let’s say leaders. Uh, it, it also has a lot of benefits in terms of, um, affecting our mental health.

Like work is where we spend most of our waking hours and to have an impact on, Something where we, we spend most of our week is, it’s huge. Uh, the potential for reducing depression and anxiety, which is like the number one cause of, um, disability and, uh, disability life years adjusted according to the WHO.

Uh, this is, um, work, I think workplaces can have a huge, there’s a huge potential to have a big impact on people’s mental health. And that goes a long way in terms of, let’s say in healthcare, where we’re serving others. If you help the helper, they’re more likely to provide higher quality patient and client care.

So it’s a trickle down of benefit to help those and create psychologically safe environments for health care workers. 

[00:06:55] Sean Burke: What’s interesting that I’m, you know, just sort of thinking about is where does the responsibility lie when it comes towards somebody nurturing or taking care of their you know, mental health and wellness.

Is it the system that needs to be structured in a certain way? Is it the manager? Is it the individual? Is it the colleagues? Like, where does it start and stop from your perspective and what you’ve seen just in the general healthcare setting? 

[00:07:18] Kelsey Klaver: Yeah, it’s a provocative question. I think traditionally, um, most employers and most, Um, I think society in general sees mental health as an individual responsibility and something that we need to fix on our own, and I think that’s changing.

I think since Covid people are talking about mental health more than ever before, say that’s probably the one of the few silver, silver linings of Covid, is that we’re talking about mental health. We’re, um, that helps to reduce stigma and that I think also helps, um, uh, employers in particularly in healthcare, see the role they can play in supporting.

Uh, the mental health of staff and focusing on upstream prevention, mental health promotion, as well [00:08:00] as intervening when someone’s affected by a psychological hazard or a mental health concern. And, uh, I think the role employers can play is much bigger than traditionally, um, I think, believed. Um, it can be profound.

And so, yeah, that’s what I guess I’d, uh, uh, Advocate for. Uh, I do think though that each of us can also play a role in advocating for our mental health through reaching out for support, asking for help when we need to, talking to people. So, so I think everyone does have a role to play. 

[00:08:30] Sean Burke: And, you know, every different employer is going to have a different set of supports, um, you know, that may be available through a benefits plan or package.

I’m just, you know, generally speaking or broadly speaking, what are some of those supports that you’ve seen available for healthcare workers? 

[00:08:47] Kelsey Klaver: Yeah, uh, well, the nice thing is that, uh, every health authority does have an employee and family assistance program that covers things like critical incident stress debriefing, um, crisis intervention, um, and counseling, uh, they usually have, um, Digital platforms or websites or apps where you can download podcasts, articles, health and well being information for them and their family.

So eligible family members are also, um, can access those resources. And, uh, there’s also, uh, tailored support for certain groups. Like there’s a, there’s physician peer support programs. I believe there’s nurse peer support programs. Uh, lots of community, um, supports depending on where people live. Um, yeah, I think those tailored supports can really be helpful for people.

So that people are talking to someone who gets it and who maybe has experienced something similar or who’s talked to people who’ve experienced something similar and they have ideas and suggestions to overcome certain barriers. Yeah, so there’s lots out there. It’s just a matter of tapping into it and I really encourage people to tap into it.

I feel like having a, let’s say a counselor, it’s just like having a dentist or a physiotherapist or a doctor. It’s, it’s just good for the mind and good for preventing things, um, from, from escalating or getting, going downhill. Okay. 

[00:10:01] Sean Burke: Absolutely. And you know, some of the things that we’ve heard in the past, the stigma, um, plays a big barrier in, in people accessing some of those supports, um, or maybe even to just like the amount of extra time that it might take, um, out of somebody’s, You know, life to go and spend a bit of time nurturing their own wellness.

Why do you think people might hesitate, um, towards taking advantage of these opportunities and supports that exist? Or, you know, maybe what in your experiences have you seen or heard from people as to, you know, what’s holding them back? 

[00:10:36] Kelsey Klaver: Hmm. Well, yeah, I think, I think stigma does still exist, uh, around accessing mental health services.

Uh, I think not everyone feels comfortable talking about it with their employer, and that might be because of history of seeing other people maybe discussed, uh, in a way, uh, that isn’t, um, you know, uh, uh, I think is maybe, uh, respectful as it could be or treated in the same way as physical injuries. Um, so yeah, I think there’s still work to be done at all levels, uh, to reduce that, the stigma and to encourage people to talk about mental health, not just with a counselor, but to each other and to, to our peers.

Um, and also for people to, to, uh, reach out to others and then open that door. And even if that person maybe doesn’t have something to say then, or I want it to. Express their thoughts. Then they might just knowing they have someone to talk to can go, I think, a long way for feeling supported. 

[00:11:32] Sean Burke: And the reality is, is that it impacts all of us, right?

If it’s not you, it’s probably someone, you know. Um, and I believe one of the most recent stats that I saw on CAMH was, uh, one in two people before the ages of 40 will have experienced some level of mental illness in their life. Right. Uh, so it is pervasive. It is all around us. And the more we can talk about it, the, um, You know, the more barriers are going to break down when it comes to that stigma.

I do want to kind of jump back a little bit though, towards [00:12:00] some of the work that, that you focused on in some of your research as well, when it comes to, uh, psychological safety, there is a national standard that exists. Um, the 13 factors, uh, through the, the national standard. I’m curious, you know, when it comes to, um, the healthcare sector, what are some of the.

priority areas when it comes to those 13 factors, um, that, that you’re seeing are important and areas that you’ve identified that, you know, we might want to pay a little bit more attention and start here. 

[00:12:33] Kelsey Klaver: Mm hmm. For sure. Yeah, great question. Yeah. And, uh, just for context, uh, all the health authorities are mandated to implement the National Standard for Psychological Health and Safety in the workplace.

And, uh, so it’s something where they’re, they’re all doing and, uh, all, uh, doing it, I think, in a phased approach because it’s a massive guide. It’s a massive undertaking to, to implement this. And, uh, yeah, speaking to the factors, there’s 13 factors that are for all workplaces, two that are more tailored for healthcare.

Um, some of them, there’s definitely some that I think are more pertinent right now, just given that we’re still in a, um, we’ve got, I wouldn’t say post pandemic, but we’re, we’re still coming out of the pandemic. We’re, we’re still, many staff are still, uh, working on the toxic drug supply crisis. And then we’ve got environmental, um, Uh, hazards like fires, uh, forest fires, and, uh, there’s lots of different things happening in B.

1. Uh, that, right now, I think, one factor is psychological and social support. That’s a basic one, and yet we all can do more with checking in with each other, reaching out for support, leaders checking in with, with their teams. Um, uh, another one is, uh, well, respect in the workplace, uh, the, these are seemingly basic things.

Sometimes it’s just applying them day to day is, is where it, it works. can become tricky, especially when we’re working on in a team environment that’s under a high pressure situation where there’s a time element. Uh, these are, this is where like there’s many dynamics at play. And, uh, I think healthcare workers are a very talented, ambitious, hardworking group of people.

And, uh, that even, even then we need to, to, you know, think about how, what we say, how does it land, even though we didn’t intend it to land that way. Um, just having opportunity for people to talk about how, uh, maybe something that was seemingly didn’t come across as respectful and how do we talk that, that through, uh, that’s pretty important, uh, still.

Uh, Yeah, I mean, workload management’s another factor. That’s a big one. A lot of teams are still working short. So how do we support those teams with their workload to still have work life balance? And, uh, um, yeah, uh, other than that, also, uh, just general physical safety, protecting, uh, having all those protection measures in place, like having the equipment tools to do our job.

Um, how do we, uh, reduce hazards in the workplace that could cause, um, uh, uh, impact our mental health as well. 

[00:14:58] Sean Burke: So again, you know, you hear just the, the number of complexities, um, and challenges that, you know, a healthcare worker might be facing and coming at you from all different angles when it comes to.

you know, maybe starting to address some of those, how and where do you choose to start? Um, so like, is it a systemic approach that, you know, ultimately could yield the greatest impact? Or, you know, is it starting at more of those micro levels where You know, it’s one on one with the individual. 

[00:15:31] Kelsey Klaver: Right, yeah, great question.

I, I think almost a top down and bottom up approach is useful. It is a systems change initiative, really. To change culture, it’s about taking a change management approach. Makes a lot of sense. And that’s where starting with senior leadership and having their buy in is absolutely crucial. But we also need, uh, everyone plays a role in promoting this culture of psychological health and safety.

So after you get buy in with senior leadership, focusing on leaders, helping them understand these concepts and how they can play a role in impacting their team. team and helping them [00:16:00] feel comfortable with things like the standard, the factors, um, things like inclusive leadership, um, equity, diversity, inclusion, and anti racism, indigenous cultural safety, all the different intersections at play that help to advance this culture.

And then of course, working with staff directly, helping them see how this can benefit them, um, and working with our union partners, how can, um, hearing from them about what matters And, uh, what role, let’s say, joint occupational health and safety committees can play. Uh, all of these players, I think, are, are important and can help advance this culture.

Um, and for those health authorities that have internal expert groups, such as, like, an ethics department or an, um, an Indigenous cultural safety team, really tapping into those, that expertise and hearing and having that voice. It’s part of it from the beginning, um, to, to support that systems change effort.

[00:16:51] Sean Burke: So when, when it comes to like giving a voice to, you know, employees, how much of the system design directly comes from the voice of the employee versus this is best practice. This is, you know, a lot of, uh, other research that’s gone on. I’m curious to know, like if I was a healthcare worker and I might be listening to this, how You know, does me giving feedback actually make a difference?

[00:17:19] Kelsey Klaver: It, it does, and I think when we pilot projects, that’s the opportunity for workers to have, um, to, to say, this, this worked, this was great, or, or no, it didn’t, let’s try, let’s try again. And having that voice is absolutely crucial for quality improvement. So, if we’re piloting, um, let’s say we are, you know, Let’s say doing a new initiative that’s based on best practice, based on research evidence, let’s say even from other countries, if there are any systematic reviews, great.

Taking that, but then involving workers, unions, leaders in discussions around those pilots and how that would play out. Hearing, having that voice. From the beginning is is absolutely crucial. And then piloting hearing from them directly as to did that did that have the intended benefit and effect that we wanted?

Um, and then if it does, looking to scale, looking to spread, seeing how we can have that. Um, and it might not spread well to every group. That’s where we need to hear from workers in all teams, because there’s so many different teams in the health care world, um, that there’s likely no one size fits all. If it’s all solution, um, yeah, I’d say absolutely there isn’t.

So, um, I think having that voice, um, and any chance we can hear that voice, whether it’s through pilots or through surveys, um, directly, just, just hearing, getting an email or having a phone call, it’s very welcome. 

[00:18:48] Sean Burke: So there’s an, there’s a standing offer right there for any healthcare worker, um, to connect.

Um, to provide that feedback. And I’m curious, like, you know, you, you mentioned whether it’s through email feedback, surveys, um, What is the most efficient way, um, or effective way for somebody to have their voice be heard? Is there, you know, if they have ideas or if they have concerns, like, you know, I’m just curious again, where can people go to get more information if they do want to share that or do want to be part of a solution that, ultimately goes forward.

[00:19:22] Kelsey Klaver: Yeah, I think, uh, reaching out to their, uh, their health authority, um, if they have a wellness team, if they have a psychological health and safety team. Psychological health and safety is situated in different parts of different health authorities. Sometimes it’s in organizational development, sometimes it’s employee experience.

Sometimes it’s in safety. So finding out who’s doing that work and sometimes they have a general inbox or finding out who does that work and reaching out to them. Um, I think those ideas can go a long way because each health authority is in relatively initial stages of implementing the standard and moving it forward.

So that worker input is really helpful. for, for doing [00:20:00] it, for moving it forward in a good way. That’s actually going to be helpful and have a positive impact. 

[00:20:04] Sean Burke: Awesome. Well, those are fantastic insights. Um, I do want to shift gears a little bit. So we’ve talked about psychological safety. Um, we also have heard the, you know, the term and the concept occupational health and safety.

So could you maybe just explain the difference between the two? 

[00:20:18] Kelsey Klaver: Yeah, so occupational health and safety is about physical, uh, largely about physical safety and, um, preventing injuries to our, uh, physical, our bodies. And that includes, like, infections and, as it does, like, musculoskeletal injuries. Uh, psychological health and safety is much more about preventing harm to our minds and our mental health.

And, uh, I see psychological health and safety as We’re in a place in society where occupational health and safety was, like, back in the 50s. Um, and even then, when the Workers Compensation Act, um, or, uh, was created back in the early 1900s, and then WorkSafeBC was created in 1917, there was still a phased approach in which they focused first on, like, Basically, compensation for death and injury, and then they focused on, more in the 40s, they focused on, um, joint occupational health and safety committees and disability management, and then they moved into, like, strains and sprains.

I almost see that happening, could see that happening with psych health and safety, where we first have uh, focus mostly on bullying and harassment. And now we’re starting to talk about other workplace strains like workload, like work life balance, like involving, involving staff and decisions that affect them.

And uh, so, it, it’ll be, I think, also on another thought, we’re, Also seeing the terminology of, um, psychological injuries and psychological hazards matching that of physical injuries and physical hazards. And the benefit of that is that it’s seen with the same degree of importance as physical injuries.

And putting it out there as, this needs to be treated as, uh, just as, um, with the same significance and importance as physical injuries. So I see a lot of benefits with integrating psychological health and safety within occupational health and safety, uh, that said it is a lot more complicated. 

[00:22:16] Sean Burke: Well, and it’s interesting how you make the comparison and the timeline of, you know, where, uh, occupational health and, um, safety was compared to psychological health and safety.

And. You know, the timelines for that. So do you anticipate, uh, psychological health and safety to move quicker through that, um, pro I guess, progression or timeline, or will it take time? 

[00:22:40] Kelsey Klaver: I hope it moves quicker than like the last hundred years for occupational health and safety, but at the same time, I think there’s more complexity to it.

So it might take some time and for a good reason, there’s more sensitivities. Um, when it comes to our mental health, there’s, there’s risk of retraumatization, um, we want to try and do anything to avoid gossiping in the workplace and things where, um, maybe there’s a risk of privacy breaches or confidentiality breaches.

And so I think we need to move slowly with certain initiatives where we talk these things through and make sure we’re doing it right, just so there’s, um, so we’re not, um, causing harm. 

[00:23:21] Sean Burke: And do you have a particular area of interest or focus that you’re most excited about, um, you know, with different project areas that you might be working on?

[00:23:28] Kelsey Klaver: Yeah, uh, I find learning and development is really exciting and just sharing this information and helping people understand how it can help them, what role they can play, uh, and tailoring that message to different groups. You know, speaking to a leader and help telling them this is how, uh, having psychological health and safety on your team can help you.

Um, I think people like to hear that. They want to know how can they be supported? How can their life be made easier? Um, and then, yeah, talking to staff, how can we make this a better place [00:24:00] to be for you on a daily basis? And how can you help your colleagues? So just, um, Interacting and helping people, like, understand these concepts is, I found has been quite exciting.

And tailoring different, um, tailoring this material to different learning approaches. Some people prefer in person, they like to talk things through in a small group, where they can learn from their peers. Other people want to do things online, other people would rather watch video, so providing all, all modes of, um, information, I think is, is important.

It’s a great way to kind of reach a lot of people. 

[00:24:31] Sean Burke: Totally, and we’ve heard a lot of, uh, conversation just around meeting people where they’re at, um, and helping them to build that self awareness, to build those different, um, skills, or get that different support depending on whatever it is that they might need.

Um, I’m curious though from your perspective about some of the challenges that maybe you’ve faced when it comes towards implementing some of these different changes or working on different initiatives that you maybe thought might be or have a bigger impact than maybe they ultimately did. So I’m curious if you might have any experiences, um, on some of the challenges or, or even shortcomings based on your own expectations that you might’ve had.

[00:25:12] Kelsey Klaver: Yeah. Good questions. Uh, it’s, it’s probably moving slower than I’d like. Uh, I mean, I love forging ahead and, and trying to help people and move things forward as soon as I can. Um, but given that this is a, something that needs to happen more at a systems level. It’s, it’s going to take longer. There’s more players involved.

There’s more people who we need to hear from. We need to hear these different perspectives. And so that, that input does take time. All knowing that that will help in the long run to have more. successful initiatives that last and have, um, a lasting impact. Um, so, so it’s, it’s important. It’s just managing, I think, my own kind of ambitious expectations of wanting to see change sooner than later.

[00:25:56] Sean Burke: Absolutely. And, you know, then looking forward again, that. That change, and if it can’t come fast enough, are there any little hacks or tips that you might have for a health care worker who, you know, is, is contemplating or going through a difficult time? 

[00:26:13] Kelsey Klaver: I think, uh, again, finding companionship in, in struggle can go a long way.

I mean, uh, it’s, there’s a saying around, you know, misery loves company, or we, we can. I think be helped by knowing that we’re not alone. That’s in itself. I don’t know how reassuring that is for people. Uh, but knowing that things can get better and can change. It’s not, Things won’t be hard forever, and that most things are temporary, and if we can find ways to cope in the meantime, and find ways to have support, and also just have healthy lifestyles, I know that’s also very basic, but exercising, raising those endorphins, eating well, trying to get enough sleep, reducing stress through, through whatever works for people, if that’s meditation, or if that’s dancing, or if that’s, you know, playing with your animal, your, you know, um, your dog, uh, doing what works and brings you joy to help cope, um, it shouldn’t be understated.

[00:27:20] Sean Burke: That sounds, you know, like such great advice when it comes to finding your own path, finding your own journey. Um, and it, it might take time, whatever you try the first time that might not be the right fit. Um, but to continue to persevere and to, you know, move forward and, and try the next thing. 

[00:27:37] Kelsey Klaver: Right, that, exactly.

[00:27:40] Sean Burke: So let’s take a, you know, zoom back out a little bit when it comes to the next 10, 15 years, um, while it might not be the hundred year transformation timeline around the occupational health and safety, what’s the next 10 years look like? Where, where do you hope that we are at from supporting [00:28:00] healthcare workers in the next 10 years?

[00:28:02] Kelsey Klaver: It’s going to be tricky to predict the future, but, uh, I could see, um, WorkSafe BC, um, playing a bigger role as they determine where they’re going to go with this, with psych health and safety, whether they’re going to, um, develop a guideline on it, uh, whether they’re going to, you know, maybe, you know, Encourage all organizations to have, let’s say, a mental health strategy or roadmap for their organization, or if they’ll come up with any kind of performance metrics that would be expected.

So really curious to see what, what happens there and, and how much they’ll include, um, psychological health and safety and existing occupational health and safety, um, Like terminology and, uh, and like guidelines and policies. Uh, also be great to see where the ministry of health goes and there’s lots of different players in BC involved in this and so seeing how that unfolds will be really interesting and what’s prioritized, whether it be a psych health safety management system or, um, yeah, more learning development.

Um, yeah. Excited to see what happens next. It’s definitely 

[00:29:04] Sean Burke: an evolving and transforming, you know, area to be working in and, um, yeah. Lots of opportunity and, you know, excited to know that people are thinking about this and people are prioritizing it. Um, you know, I’ve heard, and I think we even had this discussion earlier, just, you know, how do we address workload?

How do we address, um, the recognition and rewards? Um, you know, simple things like kudos, shout outs, thank you cards, right? Basic things that can go a long way, um, and, you know, not to overlook that. So, yeah. Lots, lots on the horizon, um, but certainly no shortage of, of areas that, that we might be able to focus on.

I’m curious when it comes to your learnings, has there been any sort of, um, big takeaway or quote or book that you kind of continue to turn back to when it comes to, uh, supporting somebody’s mental health and wellness? 

[00:30:01] Kelsey Klaver: Well, I mean, I love delving into everything from the real academic stuff to the pop culture stuff, like the Rene Browns and, um, but yeah, I mean, reading Timothy Clarke’s book on the four stages of psychological safety, that’s more for the academics out there.

Uh, but, uh, even just seeing what’s out there. Produced in Canada, we’ve got a lot of leaders in this area through like WorkSafe, or um, Workplace Strategies for Mental Health, they have some great resources, like videos, um, everything’s free, um, uh, I mean, also, uh, Queensland, Australia, there’s, um, lots of good stuff coming out of there, also the EU, um, but yeah, in terms of, uh, like one go to, um, I can’t really think of any, you know, big, big Bible on psych health and safety.

It’s, it’s still a relatively new and evolving field, even though it’s, it has been around really since the eighties. It’s just, it’s just finally coming to the surface and being discussed. 

[00:30:57] Sean Burke: Awesome. Well, it’s, uh, it’s an important topic. Variety, depth, obviously, you know, continues to be more learnings, um, listening voice of the employee, which is what, you know, continue to hear.

So I just want to take this opportunity to thank you for all of, uh, you know, what you’re doing and how you’re continuing to. Lift up and, and try to provide a safe place for people to work in. Um, to me, when I think of psychological safety, that’s really what it is, is safe places where people can be their true authentic self.

So thank you for all the work that you’re doing. And, uh, we just really appreciative that you’re on the show and can share some of your insights. 

[00:31:35] Kelsey Klaver: Oh, thanks so much for having me and thanks to all those who are also championing this work. Yeah, it takes a global village.

[00:31:47] Sean Burke: Thanks for listening to this episode. Be sure to visit the links in the show notes for resources and supports from the Care for Caregivers program. If you’re interested in sharing your story on the Care to Listen podcast, please reach out to us at careforcaregivers. [00:32:00] ca forward slash podcast. And don’t forget to follow us on your favourite podcast platform to be notified when new episodes are released.

Thanks again for joining us and see you next month.