[00:00:00] Sean Burke: Welcome to the Care to Listen podcast. Today, I am joined by Debbie Permain. Debbie is an HR consultant who has significant experience in supporting organizations with their mental health and well being strategies. In today’s episode, Debbie brings a wealth of experience to our conversation. She helps us navigate the unique challenges that healthcare professionals may face

[00:00:31] Sean Burke: Welcome back to another episode of the Care to Listen podcast. I’m your host, Sean Burke, and joining me today is is somebody who I’ve known now for a few years. Uh, welcome to the show, Debbie. 

[00:00:40] Debbie Pearmain: Hi, how’s it going? 

[00:00:42] Sean Burke: It is well, Debbie. Um, so Debbie Parmain joins us with over 25 years of HR consulting experience, specializing in anything and everything HR related, but, you know, really focusing in on the mental health and wellbeing side.

[00:00:56] Sean Burke: And in particular has a lot of experience when it comes to healthcare professionals. So we’re just excited today to talk about some of those experiences. And, um, Yeah. Share some of those learnings. 

[00:01:07] Debbie Pearmain: I am really looking forward to this conversation. 

[00:01:10] Sean Burke: So Debbie, maybe love to just start by giving you an opportunity to introduce yourself, um, share a little bit more of some of your experiences and, uh, we can go from there.

[00:01:19] Debbie Pearmain: Sounds good. So as mentioned, I’ve been doing human resources for about 25 years and most of my career, I’ve been focused on. You know, people development, so leadership development and employee development and really looking at things like emotional intelligence and creating thriving, workplace cultures.

[00:01:42] Debbie Pearmain: Um, I do a lot around employee engagement and finding ways to empower leaders to be more effective, more successful and create relationships with team members that really helps them to be their best selves. Right? So, I mean, we could get into the nuts and bolts of what that looks like, but that is in a sense what I do.

[00:02:05] Debbie Pearmain: And 17 years on workplace well being. So mental health and resiliency and coaching, you know, performance management, change management, all of that, but with the lens of doing it in a really positive and supportive and empowering way. Um, so flourishing workplace coaching and consulting is part of my practice and I’m certified in that as well as flourishing life coaching, which I think I bring.

[00:02:35] Debbie Pearmain: all of that experience to the table when I’m facilitating any of the training sessions that I do. Um, and I’ve done quite a bit of work with the health authorities through my work with Telus Health. So I’m actually a trainer for them and I’ve been doing that for over 15 years. 

[00:02:53] Sean Burke: That’s such a depth when it comes to the type of work that you’ve been doing.

[00:02:56] Sean Burke: Um, and I know having worked myself with you in the past, um, you know, your experience brings on such a, a welcomed way of talking and discussing and navigating some of the challenges specific to, to the employees. And so. going back to some of that experience in the healthcare sector. I’m wondering if you could share a little bit of some of those, you know, more specific experiences and how you have worked with the healthcare.

[00:03:23] Sean Burke: Yeah, in general. 

[00:03:25] Debbie Pearmain: Sounds good. So most of the work that I’ve been doing is from a training perspective and working with leaders as well as employees at a lot of different health authorities. Um, and, you know, Joining them with their kind of workplace well being sessions. So we talk about all kinds of topics, everything from, you know, getting a good sleep to living well with change, compassion fatigue, mental health awareness, right?

[00:03:56] Debbie Pearmain: Overcoming burnout, um, healthy [00:04:00] active living, like even, even nutrition. So all the pillars, I think, of what helps a person to be able to flourish and thrive, regardless of what profession they’re in or what’s going on in their lives. Like, it is possible, right? But there’s a lot that goes into it. It’s complicated.

[00:04:21] Sean Burke: Yeah, well, and it’s so interesting even just hearing those specific examples because so many people, when they think of mental health, they think, Somebody who’s depressed, uh, somebody who needs to speak to a counselor. And, you know, you’re talking about, um, small things like, well, they’re actually not quite small, but health or sorry, sleep, nutrition, you know, everyday things that lead to wellbeing.

[00:04:44] Sean Burke: So when it comes to you and how you sort of define and discuss and navigate mental health as a whole. Why is it important to talk about those everyday things and a holistic approach as opposed to, you know, something very specific? 

[00:04:58] Debbie Pearmain: Mm hmm. I think that a lot of us are overcomplicating our well being You know, we just have so much information out there It’s like information overload and you know The more you read or consume on various social media platforms, like you can start to get really bogged down with the information and Even it can create some confusion, because a lot of it also is, you know, contradictory.

[00:05:26] Debbie Pearmain: Um, and so, what I try to do in the training that I provide is really help people understand, like, what is the foundation of us being healthy and well? And like, what does it take for us as human beings to be able to maintain our physical health, our mental health, our emotional health? Um, so there’s a lot of roots in psychology, right?

[00:05:48] Debbie Pearmain: Behavior science, neuroscience, and even positive psychology. Um, so you kind of come together with this understanding of, okay, so here we are, human beings in a body having a lived life experience. We’ve got a brain. We’ve got a nervous system. We’ve got all kinds of chemicals, right, that pump through your bloodstream.

[00:06:11] Debbie Pearmain: We’ve got organs. And I’m really fascinated. Well, first of all, just about the human body and about all of these things. But when I’m going to training sessions, just that here we live in this body and we’ve many of us have been in it 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, me over 50 years. And we actually know very little about it.

[00:06:33] Debbie Pearmain: Like people know more about their boats, their cars, their motorcycles, their washing machines. Right? Yeah. Than they do about their own bodies. And yet, like, we only have this one body to get us through this life. And so, trying to really simplify things down for people to be like, okay, so you’ve got this brain, and your brain is the master computer for everything that happens to you, right?

[00:07:02] Debbie Pearmain: And so, what are you doing on a day to day basis to manage your mind? and take care of your brain, like brain health, right? So some of my favorite people are people like Dr. Daniel Amen. Um, I’ve read all of his books. I’ve been following him for decades and, you know, he’s a neuroscientist and his whole thing is it’s brain health that we need to be educating ourselves on.

[00:07:27] Debbie Pearmain: And he talks about all kinds of things that you and I can do every day, simple things, to actually, you know, fuel our brains so that our brains are functioning optimally. So, so that’s like one example, right? Um, and then we move from the brain to look at our nervous systems. And we have two parts, right?

[00:07:48] Debbie Pearmain: We’ve got the parasympathetic nervous system and the sympathetic nervous system. And most adults don’t even know that. And they don’t even know how to identify [00:08:00] what state their nervous system is in. So, even in the flourishing life coaching I do with people, Sean, there are so many people, myself, yourself included, who, at all different times in our day and week, are dysregulated.

[00:08:15] Debbie Pearmain: in our nervous systems. Don’t know it. Can’t recognize it. and have no idea how to fix it. How do you know when you are in your sympathetic nervous system? And what can you do about it to regulate your nervous system to get back to, right, the parasympathetic nervous system, which is all about rest and digest.

[00:08:38] Debbie Pearmain: So just bear with me. So we’ve got the mind, right? We’ve got the nervous system, the body. And then we’ve got behaviors and actions and habits. And these are all the things you and I can do day to day. That can either help us move towards flourishing and well being or move away from it. So again, one of my favorite books out there is, you know, James Clear, Atomic Habits.

[00:09:02] Debbie Pearmain: Yeah. Because he’s all about what are your healthy habits? How do you make sure you’re doing them consistently and in a disciplined way? And what are your unhealthy habits? And how do you help stop yourself? from self sabotaging, right? And doing the unhealthy things that you know are moving you away from thriving and flourishing.

[00:09:25] Debbie Pearmain: So, that’s even just a basic foundation is, do you know yourself? Do you have good self awareness? How are you caring for your mind and your brain? How are you caring for your emotions and your nervous system? And what are your day to day actions, behaviors, habits that move you closer towards well being, right, or further away from it.

[00:09:49] Debbie Pearmain: And once I help people understand that starting point, right, then we can start getting into all kinds of discussions around things like mental health, psychological safety, good sleep, good nutrition, exercise. A lot of adults are just lacking That kind of basic awareness and understanding. Does that make sense?

[00:10:13] Debbie Pearmain: And so, 

[00:10:14] Sean Burke: so many, so many different parts that I was wanting to jump in there 

[00:10:18] Debbie Pearmain: and you were so patient, 

[00:10:20] Sean Burke: you know, you talked about self awareness, you talked about the neuroscience, you talked about daily habits. Um, and you know, again, I think one of the parts that I love the most was just talking about not over complicating it and keeping it simple.

[00:10:35] Sean Burke: And something that makes sense to you. So when you are working with healthcare professionals and you are starting to help them build that self awareness or to maybe tune into what’s happening within their body, to be more aware of some of the, you know, physiological changes that are happening or they might be going through, where do you start?

[00:10:54] Sean Burke: Um, you know, that’s often a question that we come up with or we often hear where it’s, you know, there’s all these different books, there’s all this different information and how can I just start like, yeah, let’s make it 

[00:11:06] Debbie Pearmain: really simple, right? Okay. So let’s talk self awareness. So self awareness. is one of the main components of emotional intelligence.

[00:11:15] Debbie Pearmain: So one of the best training sessions I will do with any client is basic emotional intelligence. Um, we all have strengths, we all have weaknesses, and yes, we all have blind spots. And Do you understand right what your strengths are? Can you put yourself in positions that use your strengths? Do you know your weaknesses?

[00:11:37] Debbie Pearmain: What do you do with your weaknesses? Do you hide them, avoid them, pretend you don’t have them, or do you self advocate and try and get help for yourself through training, coaching, support of some kind, right? Matching yourself up with someone who’s complementary is a great strategy, right? Um, Two halves, right, can make a whole.

[00:11:59] Debbie Pearmain: And [00:12:00] then this whole piece about blind spots. So how do we grow in self awareness? Well, we’ve got to get to know ourselves. And so my quick things are start journaling, especially if you’ve had a rough day, right? Or you start to notice you’re having feelings like anger, sadness. stress, frustration. Just pull out a piece of paper and a pen and start writing down what you’re thinking.

[00:12:24] Debbie Pearmain: That, that’s a great way to begin to grow in self awareness. It’s what am I actually thinking right now that’s causing me to feel the way I’m feeling. Some people I talk to are more thinkers, so when I’m dialoguing and coaching with them, you know, my job is to simply ask questions, get them to self reflect and listen.

[00:12:46] Debbie Pearmain: So working with a coach is a great way to grow in self awareness. What I’ll do is ask questions, and then I listen to what you’re telling me, and you’re either telling me about what you’re thinking about, right, or you’re telling me how you’re feeling. When people are more at a thinking level, then what I’ll do is try and get them to really tap into, okay, so you’re thinking all these things.

[00:13:11] Debbie Pearmain: How are those thoughts making you feel? If you could, you know, create an emotion with those thoughts, what, what emotion would it be? So helping connect people, not just at the head level, but Also at the heart level to their feelings, right? Because the second part of emotional intelligence then is self regulation, which is essentially emotional management.

[00:13:34] Debbie Pearmain: So if I’m just like busy busy busy running around all in my head all the time thinking thinking thinking I’m usually kind of detached and disconnected to my feeling self, right? 

[00:13:47] Sean Burke: Yeah, 

[00:13:47] Debbie Pearmain: and The mind body connection is huge, so we can’t ignore our emotions and feelings when we’re trying to grow in self awareness.

[00:13:55] Debbie Pearmain: Like, the two together are what give us information, um, to help us understand, right? Just who we are, what we need, what we value, what motivates us, what triggers us, what causes stress for us. So I’d say journaling, I’d say working with a coach, I’d say working with a counselor. Um, the health authorities all have, um, great EAP programs.

[00:14:19] Debbie Pearmain: Grossly underutilized, by the way. 

[00:14:22] Sean Burke: Right. 

[00:14:24] Debbie Pearmain: But they are excellent because it is free, confidential coaching or counseling support for not just employees, but everyone in their family. And it’s free. It is surprising to me how underutilized the EAP programs are, um, and I feel like for every person who’s listening here, like, use your EAP program.

[00:14:47] Debbie Pearmain: You get free access to help and support. So working with a counselor helps you grow in self awareness, journaling, working with a coach, and lastly, I’m going to say meditation, right? And really, what is meditation? It’s learning to. Think about what you’re thinking about, and then eventually, eventually, learn how to look at your thoughts objectively and kind of detach from them.

[00:15:15] Debbie Pearmain: To ask yourself, like, what is actually going on here? And can I try to help myself reframe some of this thinking that’s creating distress for me, right? Um, and we could go on to a huge discussion here, Sean, but a huge part of people’s well being is learning, um, you and I have talked about this before, positive intelligence.

[00:15:37] Debbie Pearmain: Right? Which is like identify our distorted thought patterns so that we can choose on purpose to reframe our own thinking and make our thinking more positive, more hopeful, more curious, more optimistic, more peaceful even. Right? That’s a huge skill. 

[00:15:56] Sean Burke: Well, what I love about, you know, the way that you’re describing this [00:16:00] is so much of this is work that we can all choose to do.

[00:16:04] Sean Burke: Um, it’s work that we can, you know, prioritize and yes, it will, will take a little bit of time and energy, but it’s something within our control. And, you know, hearing you talk about self-awareness brings me back to, you know, about six or seven years ago in my life when I was working on building a a business and very much focused on goals process.

[00:16:27] Sean Burke: Execution, um, but really didn’t have that self awareness didn’t know how emotionally I was feeling and really just being disconnected from my body. As you talked about. And at the time I was working with my business coach and she helped me to tap into that self awareness and the impact that that had on my life was transformative so much so that ended up.

[00:16:48] Sean Burke: This next business that we’re working in is all around building that self awareness and self actualization. So I can, you know, sitting here listening to it, I’m like, yes, go Debbie. They need more of more people talking about this, um, and working with leaders, working with organizations to continue to help implement and build these skills.

[00:17:06] Sean Burke: Um, so. And bring them to the people. So for somebody, you know, in the, as a healthcare professional who might be struggling or recognizing some of those factors that are contributing to burnout or, you know, just. 

[00:17:23] Debbie Pearmain: Compassion fatigue. Compassion 

[00:17:25] Sean Burke: fatigue. You name it. What are you seeing, um, through some of those experiences that you’ve been having, either through the training sessions or working directly with individuals in healthcare, like what are some of the biggest challenges that you’re seeing healthcare workers, um, have today?

[00:17:42] Debbie Pearmain: Wow. Okay. I mean, that’s a big question. So when I am speaking with people, I’m picking up on a huge sense of Exhaustion, right? And there’s different kinds of exhaustion. There’s physical exhaustion from like long shifts, late hours, not enough sleep, not probably proper nutrition, and not enough rest for the body.

[00:18:07] Debbie Pearmain: And then there’s emotional exhaustion. So this is why I can’t help but go back to like these emotional intelligence foundations, right? Is what is going on for you right now and on a scale of one to ten? And I love scaling questions and coaching because it really makes people have to become more self aware.

[00:18:27] Debbie Pearmain: It’s like, how tired are you on a scale of one to ten? Like, are you at a one? Where you can’t even function because, I mean, if that was the case, you wouldn’t be here today with me doing this podcast. Are you at a five? What does that look like for you? Like, how do you know if you’re at a five? Are you at a seven?

[00:18:46] Debbie Pearmain: Right? Where are you on that scale? One to ten. So it’s even just that starting point. Because once we establish kind of the baseline of where you’re at or how you’re doing, whether we’re talking physical health, mental health, emotional health, what we then can do is start You know, through curiosity and through questions.

[00:19:07] Debbie Pearmain: Like, what would it look like and feel like for you if you could move that number from a five to a six? And what are some of the things that you would need to do in order to make that happen? Right? And so often I, I sense that people are just so overwhelmed and they feel really defeated and discouraged because they just know they feel tired, burnt out, exhausted, but then they have this goal or this idea in mind of like, I want to have work life balance.

[00:19:38] Debbie Pearmain: I want to feel like a 9 out of 10. And, you know, I even just think of things like smart goal setting. Could you imagine if you were at a 5 out of 10 today, and your goal was to be at a 9 out of 10, would that not feel overwhelming and defeating? Like, you know, Just out of the gate? 

[00:19:56] Sean Burke: It’d feel hopeless. 

[00:19:56] Debbie Pearmain: Right?

[00:19:57] Debbie Pearmain: And so I go back to all these like principles, and I know I’m [00:20:00] kind of throwing all kinds of things at you here, but I think of things like coaching in increments, where we say, how do we go from a five to a six, right? And James Clear in Atomic Habits says, what’s, what is 1 percent better look like? Let’s really make it small.

[00:20:16] Debbie Pearmain: So, if you’re physically tired. What’s one thing you could do this week to be 1 percent less tired this time next week? And right away, what that does is open up, right, possibilities in people’s thinking, because they’re like, oh, that’s easy. Like, I’ll just drink another glass of water. I’ll go to bed 10 minutes earlier.

[00:20:40] Debbie Pearmain: I’ll turn my phone off 10 minutes. Earlier at night, right? And so really be understanding where you are at a starting point, and then where do you want to be, right? And this is then the gap analysis, right? So if you’re at a 5 and you want to be at a 6, why are you at a 5? Why is there a gap? Like what’s happening in your life?

[00:21:04] Debbie Pearmain: Um, I loved what you said about focusing on the controllables because I think so often when I’m talking to people about the things causing stress for them, it’s either other people or situations that they have no control over. So I even in my training get people to really go back to these basic concepts of the locus of control.

[00:21:27] Debbie Pearmain: And what that tells you and I is at the end of the day the only thing you and I can control is ourselves. We have no control over anyone else or anything else. So really getting basic with that, if you and I only have control over ourselves, what do we have control over then? If you only have control over yourself, Sean, that’s it.

[00:21:48] Debbie Pearmain: What do you have control over? 

[00:21:51] Sean Burke: How I react to certain things, um, how I choose to show up. But yeah, ultimately it’s just the choice of what’s in front of me and how I respond to that. 

[00:22:02] Debbie Pearmain: And how you respond. And then go back to what I, Build off of what we just spoke about earlier, which is where do your actions, behaviors, habits, choices come from, right?

[00:22:12] Debbie Pearmain: So this is the CBT, Cognitive Behavior Therapy. They don’t just come out of nowhere. They come from your feelings. Right? And where do feelings come from? They come from your thinking. So a good foundation for anyone’s mental health and well being would be mind management. What are the things you’re doing?

[00:22:32] Debbie Pearmain: Positive intelligence is one of my favorite things right now. That’s um, Shirzad Sharman, right? And he’s got a great book on positive intelligence. I teach workshops on positive intelligence. I coach on the concepts in there. And that’s all about learning how to recognize your thinking. identify your, you know, distorted thought patterns, he calls them saboteurs, and then learn how to turn them off so that you can turn on new ways of thinking that actually help you feel better.

[00:23:06] Debbie Pearmain: So that’s step one. And then step two is emotional management. So that’s all the stuff around emotional intelligence and self regulation. And so what does that entail? That entails things like yoga and meditation and breathwork and getting out in nature, getting off screens, eating nutritious, food, right?

[00:23:31] Debbie Pearmain: Um, minimizing caffeine and alcohol and sugar and all the things that lead to some dysregulation, right? And then the third piece would be looking at your actions, your choices, behaviors. So there’s a lot that you can control to help yourself feel better. Um, and I do want to also just put a caveat in here because this does come up in my sessions.

[00:23:56] Debbie Pearmain: Yes, when it comes to our mental health, there’s also a lot of [00:24:00] it we can’t control, right? So we can’t control genetics. We can’t control past trauma. We can’t control abuse, right? We can’t control hormones to a degree, right? Like there’s so many. So yes, there’s things we can’t control. So okay, who can help us with those things?

[00:24:18] Debbie Pearmain: How can we influence some of that positively? That would be a whole nother podcast for us to do. And my goal is to get people to focus on the things that are affecting them that they can control. And then let’s start problem solving, right? And let’s start coming up with some solutions. 

[00:24:38] Sean Burke: And that was exactly what was going through my mind when you were, you know, describing, showing up and making sure that you’re taking care of whatever is within your control, but then also recognizing that in a healthcare setting, very different than, you know, certain corporate Canada jobs where, you know, it’s not life and death.

[00:24:59] Sean Burke: But in health care, it may be life and death. 

[00:25:02] Debbie Pearmain: Absolutely. 

[00:25:02] Sean Burke: And there’s a lot of trauma. In that perspective, knowing that sometimes health care workers are sacrificing their own well being to the detriment, you know, for themselves, for their patients. For the greater 

[00:25:15] Debbie Pearmain: good. 

[00:25:17] Sean Burke: It can be complicated when it comes towards.

[00:25:21] Sean Burke: trying to navigate what that looks like or, you know, being overworked because if it’s not them then who is it? Yeah. And oftentimes we hear that mentality has has been shifting a little bit where, you know, it it is actually about the health care worker prioritizing themselves so that they can show up for their patients in the best way, um, and creating some of those boundaries.

[00:25:45] Sean Burke: So I’m curious if you’ve ever had any experiences where, you know, you’ve had to have some of those tougher discussions where, you know, it, it maybe setting boundaries is going to be impacting others, but you need to. Prioritize yourself first versus, you know, maybe there’s, you’re on a, a shift and all of a sudden it’s extremely busy and you don’t get the break that you need.

[00:26:10] Sean Burke: Um, and mentally you haven’t had a chance to kind of let go of whatever it is that you’re carrying from your last patient. Mm-Hmm. , but you just have to move on to the next one. Mm-Hmm. . So I’m curious if you’ve had any of those experience with, with healthcare workers. 

[00:26:22] Debbie Pearmain: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . I mean, again, like so many great thoughts and questions, I’m, I’m just kind of thinking where to start with this.

[00:26:29] Debbie Pearmain: I. I would say one thing that comes to my mind right away is this concept of self care. And again, in the, a lot of people that I coach and in training, we have to start looking at our mindset towards the topic of self care, right? And different cultures and different generations actually view that topic differently.

[00:26:57] Debbie Pearmain: What we are seeing is a lot of people are struggling, right, and starting to burn out and have compassion fatigue and short term disability claims are the highest in Canada because of burnout and stress and mental health. We’ve got 500, 000 workers off every week because of this stuff. And so, A starting point is to even ask yourself what are your thoughts about self care and where did those thoughts come from?

[00:27:25] Debbie Pearmain: And are those thoughts healthy and are they serving you? Because a lot of people still have a belief that self care is for other people. Self care is selfish. It’s indulgent. It’s selfish. Not necessary. It’s someone else’s business to take care of me, not my own. Right? Like, a lot of people just have some interesting thoughts around the topic of self care.

[00:27:50] Debbie Pearmain: So, what are your thoughts for the listeners out there? Do you have a healthy mindset about self care? And if you work in health care, [00:28:00] I’m going to suggest that you start trying on some new thinking. And some of those new thoughts in my mind, I hope, would sound like self care is necessary for your survival.

[00:28:15] Debbie Pearmain: Self care is essential for your mental health and well being. If you actually want to flourish and thrive, the only person who’s responsible to take care of you is you. You need to start prioritizing yourself. You need to start acknowledging that you deserve it, that you’re worthy of it, right? And then you need to start literally time managing it.

[00:28:44] Debbie Pearmain: So I’m like, first of all, let’s just get you into a healthy mindset around self care. Because the reason people don’t practice self care is because they have a lot of distorted thinking about it. Once we can get you in a good mindset that self care is your responsibility, we That it’s mission critical, that you’re no good to anyone if you’re not taking care of yourself.

[00:29:06] Debbie Pearmain: It’s not selfish. It’s necessary. It’s, it’s wise, right? So starting there, then here’s the next piece. I notice the proportion of self care time that people are giving themselves is disproportionate to the output. emotional and physical energy in their job. So hear me out. If someone is sitting all day at a desk working with a computer answering emails, now I know some listeners may not agree with me, would you not say that their output, right, their emotional output, their physical output in terms of what they’re doing in their job is different from their physical output?

[00:29:56] Debbie Pearmain: Say a nurse who’s working in the emergency room. 

[00:29:59] Sean Burke: Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:30:00] Debbie Pearmain: Okay. So the proportion, right, of the physical energy that’s required, the emotional energy, and you know, we could get into all kinds of arguments and discussions around the mental load and the mental energy and what the technology’s doing to your nervous system and all of that.

[00:30:15] Debbie Pearmain: But let’s just put all that to the side. Okay. So if you just go with what I said. Then you’ve got two people very different, and yet I could talk to the person who sits at their desk all day, right? And I could talk to someone who works in healthcare and say, So what’s your wellness strategy? And both people tell me kind of the same thing.

[00:30:36] Debbie Pearmain: Oh, you know, I exercise three or four times a week, and I might go for a massage once a month. Um, you know, I try to get out in nature on the weekend, play with the kids. Okay, so where’s the disconnect? Are you seeing it really clearly? Mm hmm. And I’m literally, when I’m in rooms with healthcare workers, saying, I know this is going to be hard to accept.

[00:31:00] Debbie Pearmain: And it might even be hard for your family, your spouse, your kids, to really get this and accept it. But because of the nature of the job you do, Your prescription for self care is double what my prescription for self care is. So when you tell me, Oh, I just do these, like, kind of average things that most people do to try and stay healthy and well, and you’re not getting results, Now can you see why?

[00:31:33] Sean Burke: Yeah, it’s so interesting. And you know, one of the concepts here, I love that example and that story is meeting people where they’re at and helping them to discover what is important or what the needs are of, of that specific individual. And that example to me clearly articulates that there’s going to be differences and different people are going to have different needs and, you know, Finding and [00:32:00] figuring that out for yourself.

[00:32:01] Sean Burke: I’m somebody who needs a ton of physical exercise and I don’t get it during the day because I’m sitting behind this computer where somebody walking around. You know, the sixth floor of a hospital might be getting that all day and they need something different. Oh, 10, 000 steps 

[00:32:16] Debbie Pearmain: easy, right? 

[00:32:17] Sean Burke: So, 

[00:32:18] Debbie Pearmain: so again, going back to self awareness, what do you need to feel healthy?

[00:32:23] Debbie Pearmain: What do you need to be able to thrive? We all need a certain amount of stimulation. We’re all different, and we’re all different. Summer extroverts, summer introverts, right? We all have different energies. We all have different capacities. You really need to know yourself. When you’re functioning optimally, what does that look like, feel like for you?

[00:32:41] Debbie Pearmain: How are you functioning? And then when you start to go over the arc of that stress curve, down into this area of exhaustion and, and fatigue and starting to head towards burnout. Can you notice and recognize what those things sound like, feel like, look like in your life? Can you catch it early so that you can then put these self care, self management practices in place to help get you back to a healthy place?

[00:33:09] Debbie Pearmain: That’s another thing I’m noticing is people are just so on this automatic treadmill. Mm hmm. Yeah. That they can have some of these signs or symptoms, just ignore them or stuff them or not really pay attention to them, and then weeks go by. And weeks turn into months. Yeah. Right? And then all of a sudden they wake up one day, I’m talking to them, and they’re like, What happened?

[00:33:32] Debbie Pearmain: I don’t even know what happened to me, right? And, and if we can start to recognize and notice those signs early and then give ourselves permission to take care of ourselves and our needs and have strategies, I call them self management strategies. So when you’re tired, what are your self management strategies?

[00:33:53] Debbie Pearmain: It might be I’m going to bed earlier. I’m gonna drink more water. I’m gonna eat more vegetables. More vegetables. I’m gonna eat a handful of nuts. Like, I’m gonna eat more protein. Okay, when you’re stressed out, what is your self management practices? Okay, maybe that’s when I’m gonna do a meditation, or I’m gonna do a yoga class and skip the run, or I’m gonna go to bed and read a book.

[00:34:18] Debbie Pearmain: I’m gonna have a hot bath and put some Epsom salts in there. Um, so knowing where you are and then having self management habits and practices to help you get to that place of healthy is really important. Recognizing this stuff early, taking steps is important. And the third thing I’m going to say, Sean, is this self advocacy piece.

[00:34:40] Debbie Pearmain: So we have all, myself included, gone through challenges and times where We’re doing the best we can, we’re still struggling, we’re doing everything we think we can to manage. We know it’s not getting better. Sometimes it starts to get worse and we’re like, how do I get myself out of this rut? Right? Um, and that’s where again, I work a lot with people’s mindsets around the concept of self advocacy.

[00:35:11] Debbie Pearmain: What are the first thoughts that come to your mind, Sean, when I say, You need to ask for help. 

[00:35:19] Sean Burke: Yeah, I mean the first thing even, even before asking for help, I would say like creating my own boundaries. Um, knowing what my limitations are and being clear with those, uh, with others. Um, uh, But you’re 

[00:35:33] Debbie Pearmain: very emotionally intelligent.

[00:35:35] Debbie Pearmain: Because I’m going to tell you a lot of people struggle to even consider 

[00:35:39] Sean Burke: that they have limitations. 

[00:35:43] Debbie Pearmain: What do you mean I’ve got limitations? What do you mean I can’t do it all? I’m not a superman. Right? A lot of people struggle to even, like, there’s lots of people out there that won’t even ask for directions when they’re lost.

[00:35:56] Debbie Pearmain: So, how do we get people to be like, it’s [00:36:00] okay. to need help. It’s okay to ask for help. It’s brave. It’s courageous. It’s wise. Like, again, changing mindsets because there is a lot of support and help for people in health care, but you have to be willing to admit, hey, I’m struggling and I can’t help myself or figure it out, or I just don’t have capacity.

[00:36:23] Debbie Pearmain: So, Where are the resources? Who are the people that can come alongside me right now and help me? 

[00:36:31] Sean Burke: A hundred percent. I mean, even, even shifting the perspective from, you know, I might be struggling and this is the help that I need to an athlete. Who always has a coach always and a coach is you know The best athletes in the world still have a coach to help them improve So, you know whether it’s a counselor to help you through something you might be struggling with Or even to help you thrive.

[00:36:57] Sean Burke: I mean it to me it 100 makes sense. And so You know coming back to your question. I think yes looking towards getting that external help and support whether it’s a growth mentality um, or even just To to continue to get through the day. I mean, that’s okay. Um, and so, yeah, I, I totally see what you’re saying.

[00:37:17] Sean Burke: We’re running out of time here. I know this conversation can continue to go. You have so much to share. I’d like to just kind of end on, you know, something that as people are looking towards the next or some more innovative ways to, to approach mental health and wellness, we’ve talked a little bit about EMDR.

[00:37:38] Sean Burke: You’ve talked about some other strategies as well. I’m curious, maybe if you could just Let’s touch on it. Let’s not get into depth of it, but if you could touch on some of the things that you’re seeing. 

[00:37:46] Debbie Pearmain: Yeah, no problem. And actually, I wanted to circle back because you had asked about things like if the stressors in people’s jobs are things like trauma and vicarious trauma, which are all very real and really impacting for healthcare workers.

[00:38:01] Debbie Pearmain: Um, again, this is where I just want to strongly encourage people to not just like go home and, and brave it alone. Right, like when it comes to things like trauma and vicarious trauma, that can have lasting impacts on your brain and nervous system for years. So recognizing that and being like, it’s okay that it’s impacting you or affecting you.

[00:38:23] Debbie Pearmain: And then reaching out like where, okay, HR, my supervisor, um, EAP, right, your benefits provide counseling for you. And then really specifically asking for trauma informed counseling. Right? And, and EAP offers crisis support. So what are the, um, practices that I have seen and heard from my clients who have complex PTSD, who have PTSD that are really helpful for them beyond talk therapy?

[00:38:55] Debbie Pearmain: Uh, they’re going to be body practices, right? Because again, that mind body connection is huge and it’s not just going on in your mind and your brain. It’s going on in your nervous system as well. So this is where I’m going to suggest things like somatic yoga. Right? Getting to know things about the vagus nerve.

[00:39:12] Debbie Pearmain: So there’s lots of stuff out there today about the vagus nerve and about something called vagal toning exercises that you and I can do in the moment when we feel triggered to bring immediate relief to our nervous system. So Google vagal toning. Um, EFT tapping. Also, that’s a huge practice and there’s all kinds of great people on Instagram who like do tapping posts every morning and you can tap along with them and it takes two or three minutes.

[00:39:43] Debbie Pearmain: And once you learn the tapping sequence, that’s something you can do in the moment, right? You can go to the washroom, you can go for a walk, and it really helps calm the mind. your nervous system. Um, we’ve talked about EMDR. It’s also very helpful. So a lot of [00:40:00] people feel like once they’ve experienced trauma, have PTSD, There’s like no hope for that and we just know that’s not true.

[00:40:07] Debbie Pearmain: So EMDR is a very powerful counseling practice, like practice. Not all counselors are certified in EMDR, so find yourself an EMDR therapist. Brain spotting, that’s another one for trauma. I mean, I could keep going. So, knowing about resources beyond traditional talk therapy. Self advocacy is also really important for people so that you can properly self advocate.

[00:40:34] Debbie Pearmain: And this is where, again, I’m going to say having the awareness, having the strategies early, because as we go further down this continuum, whether it’s the stress curve or the mental health continuum, our motivation, desire, and ability to self advocate goes down. So then I’m also just going to end on support systems.

[00:40:58] Debbie Pearmain: Right, I think a lot of people in our society today feel quite alone and isolated and disconnected from like real friendships and real supports. I see it in my clients, right? People have moved from places, have no family, no close friends, and are trying to brave it alone. And what I encourage, I teach support groups in the community, I think you know that, um, I always hand out a list on night one.

[00:41:26] Debbie Pearmain: I’m like, here’s all the community resources that are here to help you, and if you don’t feel supported in life, then you need to know where you can go to get the help and support. And I think every employer should publish that for their employees, like, beyond EAP and benefits, whatever community you live in, what does the Canadian Mental Health Association offer?

[00:41:48] Debbie Pearmain: Tons of free support groups. 

[00:41:51] Sean Burke: Absolutely. 

[00:41:52] Debbie Pearmain: Right? And then you’ve got your friends, and you’ve got your neighbors, and your community places, and your And maybe it’s through a spiritual practice, right? Could be a church, a synagogue, a mosque. 

[00:42:06] Sean Burke: There’s the peer to support, peer support line, the care to speak. 

[00:42:09] Debbie Pearmain: Yes, yes.

[00:42:11] Debbie Pearmain: Yeah. And I’m also going to do a shout out. There’s a great coaching program through the Canadian Mental Health Association called Bounce Back. And that’s that free. Kind of, what is it, six weeks that you can self refer now. You don’t need a doctor’s referral anymore. You can just go online and register yourself for that program.

[00:42:30] Debbie Pearmain: Um, so the need for support is also a huge pillar to people’s mental health and well being. We’ve talked about a lot today. I hope it’s been helpful. I hope it’s been helpful. We 

[00:42:41] Sean Burke: certainly have. And I think, you know, what I particularly enjoyed about today’s conversation, Debbie, is just your ability to take your experiences, your learnings, Um, and, and share them and talk about how people can take actionable steps that, um, Are not overwhelming.

[00:42:58] Sean Burke: Yeah. Right. There’s small steps and when added up over time, it’s going to make that meaningful impact and difference. So we really appreciate you taking the time today, uh, coming on the show and sharing your knowledge. Um, we will leave some information on Debbie and One Stop HR in the show notes, so you can get some more information if you are interested.

[00:43:20] Sean Burke: Um, so. And yeah, we just really appreciate you taking the time out of today and sharing us with all your knowledge. So thanks, Debbie. 

[00:43:26] Debbie Pearmain: Thank you so much for having me and it’s always great working with you. So thank you and I just want to wish all your listeners well. And um, yeah, we’ll just continue the conversation.

[00:43:37] Sean Burke: Absolutely. Thanks for listening to this episode. Be sure to visit the links in the show notes for resources and supports from the Care for Caregivers program. If you’re interested in sharing your story on the Care to Listen podcast, Please reach out to us at careforcaregivers. ca forward slash podcasts and don’t forget to follow us on your favorite podcast platform to be notified when new episodes are [00:44:00] released.

[00:44:00] Sean Burke: Thanks again for joining us and see you next month.